tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post3446867170009071674..comments2023-11-28T09:02:03.742+01:00Comments on The Seneca Effect: The Decline of Science: Why we Need a new Paradigm for the Third MillenniumUgo Bardihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-26921274326246203662021-07-25T10:51:58.273+02:002021-07-25T10:51:58.273+02:00Yes, of course. My address is ugo.bardi--thingythi...Yes, of course. My address is ugo.bardi--thingything--unifi.it. And thanks!<br />Ugo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-23667927095210485162021-07-25T10:51:51.371+02:002021-07-25T10:51:51.371+02:00Yes, of course. My address is ugo.bardi--thingythi...Yes, of course. My address is ugo.bardi--thingything--unifi.it. And thanks!<br />Ugo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-51739447974885913702021-07-23T16:03:22.147+02:002021-07-23T16:03:22.147+02:00How kind of you. You are very busy I know.. I real...How kind of you. You are very busy I know.. I really enjoyed The Seneca Effect which I had ordered as soon as it came out. If I have an email address I can send you some articles by a few of the other authors, such as Dr. Wildcat's appreciation of spatial thinking. M Troiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214978797059883494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-35364982023008999272021-07-23T15:35:58.317+02:002021-07-23T15:35:58.317+02:00Thank you NN for pointing out that crucial differe...Thank you NN for pointing out that crucial difference. Indeed scientism as a philosophy and worldview has it's flaws. As to what would replace such a pervasive way of thinking, I think the question could be moot given how quickly things are deteriorating. The loss of accumulated scientific/technological knowledge makes the regression to some form of paganism and/or spiritualism likely, in my view.blackTomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08247961256570492410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-43713551525081191322021-07-22T23:25:37.682+02:002021-07-22T23:25:37.682+02:00I started with ordering the book by Vine DeloraI started with ordering the book by Vine DeloraUgo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-3511624348143205302021-07-22T23:18:19.715+02:002021-07-22T23:18:19.715+02:00Thank you, Mr. Troia. A very interesting comment a...Thank you, Mr. Troia. A very interesting comment and you raise a lot of important points. I must confess that I am not acquainted enough with the authors you mention, but you make me wanting to learn more. I'll try to do my best!Ugo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-65964355446219844852021-07-21T23:45:05.767+02:002021-07-21T23:45:05.767+02:00The Observation Problem in Quantum Mechanics is co...The Observation Problem in Quantum Mechanics is considered enough to demolish Quantum Mechanics.<br /><br />And this is exactly the case with The Limits of Growth and now Gaya Herrington's piece of work, too.<br /><br />You cannot describe the collapsing surroundings objectively and forget yourself is collapsing - unable to be aware of change everywhere else.<br /><br />This is why many people think The Limits of Growth has been no more than a weaponised Designer-Collapse Plan, rather than an honest Science.<br /><br />Humans must never dismiss the historic fact that whenever collapse occurs somewhere, a build up toward prosperity springs somewhere else.<br /><br />A fictitious Universal Collapse has only been imagined by LofG and now Herrington - both being ignorant to the Observation Problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-51823694552707152502021-07-21T22:10:18.504+02:002021-07-21T22:10:18.504+02:00First thanks for the reflection of the history of ...First thanks for the reflection of the history of the replacement of the Christian weltanschauung by Scientism’s secular religion of perpetual growth and technology as the deus ex machina of the economic system and its ‘unintended consequences’.<br /><br />As to the next iteration of worldview. It is perhaps not a coincidence that you focused on the Catholic Hapsburg controversy regarding Amerindians. Of all the possible contenders for an alternative to the dominant paradigm one that is gaining in strength is Indigenous thinking sometimes referred to an ‘indigenization’ <br />I want to suggest that you take a look some texts by thinkers from this stream, starting perhaps, with a work called Native Science, by Gregory Cajete. It deals with some issues you raised in this blog entry. I think. Also, have you read anything by Vine Delora Jr. who did one of the first and most cutting attacks at European science in, but not only in, Red Earth, White Lies and God is Red? Following on from his work is Daniel Wildcat. Dr Wildcat worked with Vine Deloria and sets out the case for a biocentric, spatial epistemology. Soon after Vine Delora’s death he wrote a sort piece that discusses Vina Deloria’s philosophy entitled: Indigenizing the Future: Why We Must Think Spatially in the Twenty-first Century. Another indigenous philosopher worth checking out is Leroy Little Bear who shows how Blackfoot scientific thinking aligns with quantum physics. <br />Recently an Australian aboriginal thinker brought out a book on how and why indigenous thinking is the best alternative for a world view to help humans get through the coming collapse. This is Tyson Yunkaporta, the book is: Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World. It’s an engaging read that I think you might enjoy for its style and spirit, if nothing else. <br /><br />A body of literature is building up around TEK, that is, traditional ecological knowledge. Some authors are Dennis Martinez, Raymond Pierotti, Melissa Nelson to name a few. <br /><br />By now you will have understood my point. You seem to suggest that a replacement of Scientism (which you critiqued so pithly) will be either with a reformulated Christianity or some kind of regenerated paganism. A third and much more audacious path is turning to the world views and ontology that the Europeans did all they could to exterminate. Wouldn’t that be the greatest example of poetic justice ever? <br />Of course, a caveat is that indigenous thinking does not get co-opted by New Agers who are neoliberal wolves in ‘fake’ tribal/pagan clothing. My apologies of you are already acquainted with these thinkers. <br />M Troiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214978797059883494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-11593264682154194792021-07-21T22:04:03.333+02:002021-07-21T22:04:03.333+02:00First thanks for the reflection of the history of ...First thanks for the reflection of the history of the replacement of the Christian weltanschauung by Scientism’s secular religion of perpetual growth and technology as the deus ex machina of the economic system and its ‘unintended consequences’.<br /><br />As to the next iteration of worldview. It is perhaps not a coincidence that you focused on the Catholic Hapsburg controversy regarding Amerindians. Of all the possible contenders for an alternative to the dominant paradigm one that is gaining in strength is Indigenous thinking sometimes referred to an ‘indigenization’ <br />I want to suggest that you take a look some texts by thinkers from this stream, starting perhaps, with a work called Native Science, by Gregory Cajete. It deals with some issues you raised in this blog entry. I think. Also, have you read anything by Vine Delora Jr. who did one of the first and most cutting attacks at European science in, but not only in, Red Earth, White Lies and God is Red? Following on from his work is Daniel Wildcat. Dr Wildcat worked with Vine Deloria and sets out the case for a biocentric, spatial epistemology. Soon after Vine Delora’s death he wrote a sort piece that discusses Vina Deloria’s philosophy entitled: Indigenizing the Future: Why We Must Think Spatially in the Twenty-first Century. Another indigenous philosopher worth checking out is Leroy Little Bear who shows how Blackfoot scientific thinking aligns with quantum physics. <br />Recently an Australian aboriginal thinker brought out a book on how and why indigenous thinking is the best alternative for a world view to help humans get through the coming collapse. This is Tyson Yunkaporta, the book is: Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World. It’s an engaging read that I think you might enjoy for its style and spirit, if nothing else. <br /><br />A body of literature is building up around TEK, that is, traditional ecological knowledge. Some authors are Dennis Martinez, Raymond Pierotti, Melissa Nelson to name a few. <br /><br />By now you will have understood my point. You seem to suggest that a replacement of Scientism (which you critiqued so pithly) will be either with a reformulated Christianity or some kind of regenerated paganism. A third and much more audacious path is turning to the world views and ontology that the Europeans did all they could to exterminate. Wouldn’t that be the greatest example of poetic justice ever? <br />Of course, a caveat is that indigenous thinking does not get co-opted by New Agers who are neoliberal wolves in ‘fake’ tribal/pagan clothing. My apologies of you are already acquainted with these thinkers. <br />M Troiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214978797059883494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-31019130847308819062021-07-21T21:58:39.639+02:002021-07-21T21:58:39.639+02:00First thanks for the reflection of the history of ...First thanks for the reflection of the history of the replacement of the Christian weltanschauung by Scientism’s secular religion of perpetual growth and technology as the deus ex machina of the economic system and its ‘unintended consequences’.<br /><br />As to the next iteration of worldview. It is perhaps not a coincidence that you focused on the Catholic Hapsburg controversy regarding Amerindians. Of all the possible contenders for an alternative to the dominant paradigm one that is gaining in strength is Indigenous thinking sometimes referred to an ‘indigenization’ <br />I want to suggest that you take a look some texts by thinkers from this stream, starting perhaps, with a work called Native Science, by Gregory Cajete. It deals with some issues you raised in this blog entry. I think. Also, have you read anything by Vine Delora Jr. who did one of the first and most cutting attacks at European science in, but not only in, Red Earth, White Lies and God is Red? Following on from his work is Daniel Wildcat. Dr Wildcat worked with Vine Deloria and sets out the case for a biocentric, spatial epistemology. Soon after Vine Delora’s death he wrote a sort piece that discusses Vina Deloria’s philosophy entitled: Indigenizing the Future: Why We Must Think Spatially in the Twenty-first Century. Another indigenous philosopher worth checking out is Leroy Little Bear who shows how Blackfoot scientific thinking aligns with quantum physics. <br />Recently an Australian aboriginal thinker brought out a book on how and why indigenous thinking is the best alternative for a world view to help humans get through the coming collapse. This is Tyson Yunkaporta, the book is: Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World. It’s an engaging read that I think you might enjoy for its style and spirit, if nothing else. <br /><br />A body of literature is building up around TEK, that is, traditional ecological knowledge. Some authors are Dennis Martinez, Raymond Pierotti, Melissa Nelson to name a few. <br /><br />By now you will have understood my point. You seem to suggest that a replacement of Scientism (which you critiqued so pithly) will be either with a reformulated Christianity or some kind of regenerated paganism. A third and much more audacious path is turning to the world views and ontology that the Europeans did all they could to exterminate. Wouldn’t that be the greatest example of poetic justice ever? <br />Of course, a caveat is that indigenous thinking does not get co-opted by New Agers who are neoliberal wolves in ‘fake’ tribal/pagan clothing. My apologies of you are already acquainted with these thinkers. <br />M Troiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01214978797059883494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-73534437601174957432021-07-21T18:00:58.947+02:002021-07-21T18:00:58.947+02:00Very /offtopic, so feel free to delete, but I am ...Very /offtopic, so feel free to delete, but I am occasionally working on an sf novel with a beneficial? organization dedicated to reducing the 40 generations of barbarian rule on earth to 3 or 4 generations. Maybe call it the Foundation ... wait ...<br />Reminds me to inquire about your "Gaian" screenplay.Art Decohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12955243137081184262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-66532054479114377722021-07-21T12:55:56.905+02:002021-07-21T12:55:56.905+02:00Some things, I'd say yes.Some things, I'd say yes. Ugo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-13339627100535321352021-07-21T12:55:26.113+02:002021-07-21T12:55:26.113+02:00Yes, I know. This lady is doing good work!Yes, I know. This lady is doing good work!Ugo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-31558621364425855362021-07-21T07:56:15.530+02:002021-07-21T07:56:15.530+02:00I assume you've seen this:
https://advisory.kp...I assume you've seen this:<br />https://advisory.kpmg.us/articles/2021/limits-to-growth.htmlJoe Clarksonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-27204110745512138982021-07-21T07:51:33.197+02:002021-07-21T07:51:33.197+02:00This progression from paganism to Christianity to ...This progression from paganism to Christianity to Scientism seems to confirm a human need to believe in something that gives their life context. Great post Ugo. Nick Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12609312325425361413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-28509555036138636402021-07-21T00:55:37.307+02:002021-07-21T00:55:37.307+02:00Yes but is civilization worth saving?Yes but is civilization worth saving?Leo Bulerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06975847696619643942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-85854825604817603892021-07-20T14:12:56.625+02:002021-07-20T14:12:56.625+02:00The Church didn't save anything, Homeric cultu...The Church didn't save anything, Homeric culture was dead before the Empire collapsed and its embalmed corpse was little more than propaganda for the regime,which crumbled with it.<br /><br />This is because civilizations start as cultures and end as extreme totalitarian regimes that do a gleichschaltung on the traditional society, turning its culture into propaganda props for the regime.<br /><br />We see this today, we started with a culture and society, Medieval Christiendom and ended up with a collection of national security states for whom Truth is whatever is convenient to their powerholding cliques.<br /><br />We this in how the clergy is so eager to be seen as modern intellectuals that they have destroyed christian piety, regarding it as an embarassement. Anybody who wan't to know what it used to be has to work like an archeologist to find out what it used to be. Science too has been mostly destroyed and itys remains turned into an regime ideology.<br /><br />Christianity didn't save the Ancient world because there was little left to be saved. Rather it provided a foundation upon which a new society could grow and prosper.Mon Seul Desirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00959666024048186745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-40366750287100032712021-07-20T09:13:24.100+02:002021-07-20T09:13:24.100+02:00Yes, "How the Irish saved Civilization" ...Yes, "How the Irish saved Civilization" is a great book. Truly deserving to be read. And it is very much in line with the reasoning I am developing here. Ugo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-22312836361064596332021-07-20T03:26:53.557+02:002021-07-20T03:26:53.557+02:00I agree with Degringolade. I have read and reread ...I agree with Degringolade. I have read and reread this post, and it is really too dense for me to comment. The intersection of the beliefs of the laity, the churches, the scientists, and the politicians is a minefield to me. A somewhat related popular history book , "How the Irish saved civilization" concentrated just on the way the monasteries in Ireland preserved books and knowledge after the collapse of Rome, and took an entire book to cover a tiny slice of the transformation from Pagan to Christian thought."The conquest of Mexico" took 3 volumes. IIRC. So yeah, this idea of going from Scientism to the next level is going to take a while. Art Decohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12955243137081184262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-74630389690197528062021-07-19T09:37:12.176+02:002021-07-19T09:37:12.176+02:00As Ugo noted in the post, there's a difference...As Ugo noted in the post, there's a difference between science and scientism. Try bringing vaccines up for debate and see what results you get.NNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00940438016625659326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-87645897238197435742021-07-19T05:56:18.275+02:002021-07-19T05:56:18.275+02:00Science is always so posh and delicate, it cannot ...<b>Science is always so posh and delicate, it cannot oppose the brutality of a fossil fuels-powered, desperate and vicious Social Contract...</b><br /><br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdYIZXxErgg" rel="nofollow">Watch this recent video</a> on Coal in China;<br /><br />It cannot be that the outgoing 20th Century Physics couldn't calculate and anticipate that this is going to happen by 2021, but able to model and know exactly everything inside a Blackhole, decades and decades ago.<br /><br />It seems that when supressed, Science escapes to fantasies, like Blackholes, excess power from nuclear Fusion, wind, solar geothermal, etc, while the Social Contract enjoys that confiscation of Science - a tool in its unforgiving doctrine of <b>Huxley's Over Organisation</b>.<br /><br />Science and Scientists are so delicate and fragile, they cannot say in the face of a brutal Social Contract, and the armies of Inquisition workers on its (and only remaining across Economics) payroll - your reign is about to end - a mathematical certainty.<br /><br />When Science and Scientists forced to escape to Blackholes, the Social Contract itself resorts today to <a href="https://the-fifth-law.com/pages/the-peak-oil-musical-chairs%E2%84%A2-calculator?ugo=/2021/07/the-collapse-of-science-why-we-need-new.html" rel="nofollow">Pandemics and Gulags</a>.<br /><br />Science is so honest and genuine at core, in 1865 Stanley Jevons has warned about the Energy Question, but our Western Civilisation preferred to side by the-no-more than a proposal postulating E=mc^2, choreograph WW I, the pathetic experiment of the Soviet Union, WW II and the theatrical Arab-Israeli conflict.<br /><br />Ignoring Jevons, who opposed exporting British coal, but instead socialising all fossil fuels worldwide to last drops - the Social Contract has actually messed up with Life.<br /><br />WW I and II have proven that Life is better for the Social Contract not to mess up-with, by socialising fossil fuels, as all the tens and hundreds of millions who have been killed in those wars have been replaced in not much longer than 9 months after the wars.<br /><br />There are reports claiming the US has burned 3rd of all its oil reserves in the course of WW II, which animated the killing of all those millions - just to have after it - a baby boom.<br /><br />Isaac Newton, the Coinage Director, has been buried with the greatest, Jevons has drowned.<br /><br />Isaac Newton's Science proved far from being final, Jevons' Science proved absolute.<br /><br /><b>As fossil fuels deplete by the hour, the golden age of Science is ahead for people</b>, having humans now articulated and documented for themselves the-bottom-line - "<a href="https://the-fifth-law.com/pages/press-release?ugo=/2021/07/the-collapse-of-science-why-we-need-new.html" rel="nofollow">Energy, like time, flows from past to future</a>";<br /><br />The common sense Science that explains the essence of a Social Contract and its relation to Physics - shoulder to shoulder and hand by hand - once for all.<br /><br />Wailing.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-3893240743329048582021-07-19T02:19:10.383+02:002021-07-19T02:19:10.383+02:00A couple decades back people like Paul Feyerabend ...A couple decades back people like Paul Feyerabend had already been pointing out, mainly in his book <i>Against Method</i>, that what we call science is really as faith-based as any religion or ideology.<br /><br />I think one of the most fatal blows to the whole edifice of Christianity came from Christianity itself with the arising of a school of thought known as the <i>Voluntarists</i> in the 16th to 17th centuries, headed by people like Rene Descartes, Pierre Gassendi and Robert Boyle -- partly as a response to another school of thought known as the Hermaticists or Neoplatonists, who entertained such ideas as the presence of God in all of Nature and hence the need to study Her workings to gain a greater understanding of God. The Voluntarists' most central belief is the <i>complete freedom of God</i>; He's completely free to fashion the Universe in whatever way He likes, even alter Nature laws so that 1+1 won't equal 2. Side-by-side with this view the Voluntarists also entertained a view of Nature as strictly composed of insentient matter -- totally devoid of any presence of God -- set in motion by purely mechanical and external forces and without any internal motivation (except for humans, who have souls).<br /><br />These ideas of the Voluntarists had far-reaching consequences: not only did they lead to the materialistic science of later times, but <i>the very possibility of knowledge was actually undermined by them</i>, because to point at anything as being necessarily so (and therefore as a piece of knowledge) would amount to saying God had <i>no choice</i> but to let it be so, which would contradict the view that He has complete freedom to choose. This was used at first to bring down the Hermaticists/Neoplatonists, but the supreme irony here is that in due course it came to undermine the legitimacy of the Church itself as well. After all, if you can't consider anything to be true and final knowledge, especially knowledge of God's existence, then how the heck are you supposed to know whether there's a God? And without any such knowledge, what footing could the Church have?<br /><br />Descartes apparently saw this danger and tried to go around it in his <i>Meditations</i> by establishing God's existence on the first premise that he (Descartes) is a thinking, self-aware being. But (I think) he cheated big time in certain ways. (Huh? You're saying that God isn't all that free to choose to do what He wishes, after all?) Certainly Hume didn't buy his arguments. And he and Kant were later to inflict yet further blows on the possibility of knowledge, above all knowledge of those things that mattered the most, such as God. Welcome to the modern world in which, as Solzhenitsyn lamented, men have forgotten God.<br /><br />I incidentally wonder if premodern China might have also contributed to the decline of Christianity in the West. When the texts and teachings of <i>Confucianism</i> -- a religion without an anthropomorphic God as its basis -- came to be known by the Jesuits and brought back by them to Europe, many European intellectuals seized on the alien teachings with excitement, apparently in a bid to oust the power of the Church by saying, "There you go, you can have morality without a God!"G Wangnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-52478139135652576752021-07-18T18:25:34.768+02:002021-07-18T18:25:34.768+02:00Truly a beautiful title: "Opinion: Civilized ...Truly a beautiful title: "Opinion: Civilized nations’ efforts to deter Russia and China are starting to add up" <br /><br />Russia and China, evidently, are uncivilized savages. I wonder if this guy will ever take a trip to St. Petersburg to visit the Hermitage Museum. Ugo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-79643927369938635982021-07-18T18:19:16.544+02:002021-07-18T18:19:16.544+02:00"But the European belief system evolved into ..."But the European belief system evolved into something that had no rigid rules preventing the ruthless exploitation of natural resources, be they minerals, living creatures, or people who could be branded as "savages." This new system was supposed to avoid a repetition of the Valladolid controversy. It was called "science.""<br /><br />I think that this is definitely still a tactic. Consider this little gem by the archdouche George Will.<br /><br />https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/16/some-welcome-pushback-russian-chinese-assaults-international-order/<br /><br />Apparently we are civilized and decide who isn't.Degringoladehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11893964959960977677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1585995614037680457.post-1335176098523194152021-07-18T17:52:15.307+02:002021-07-18T17:52:15.307+02:00The way I see it, Christianity was the perfect bel...The way I see it, Christianity was the perfect belief system for the society in which it was adopted. The problem of Europe in the early Middle Ages was how to salvage at least something out of the wreck of the old empire. The Europeans were few (at some moment, Europe had just 18 million inhabitants, can you believe that?), they were desperately poor, and they were a Babel of different languages and usages. The Church provided a common language (Latin), a class of intellectuals who could save much of the old knowledge, including a justice system that was reasonably fair. After the economic collapse of the 4th century, the Church at least avoided a cultural collapse. About technologies, people still think that the Middle Ages were barbaric and primitive. Not at all! Just think of an invention called "codex" -- that today we call "book".... Ugo Bardihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231859786466899924noreply@blogger.com